I'm not sure what your links do in proving you are right about profit vs non-profit but whatever you want to believe.   Fact is that the non-profit status exists.  If you want them to pay taxes because you think they are for profit, then get ready to even pay more for your healthcare as I would assume that someone as smart as you think you are understands that the cost would just be passed on to the customer.  I know thats difficult to understand but a fact.

As for the coding and medicare?   The coding system in itself is just fine but the red tape that medicare creates (ie the Govt) only increases costs and the fact that medicare and medicaid under reimburses leads to higher costs for others.  Again, simple concept but reality.  Guessing from your post, it appears you are one of those guys that thinks that posting costs online for instance by hospitals and clinics would reduce costs to the consumer.  Explain how you will display each code and the cost associated with it in terms that an individual will understand?  Do you have any idea how many combinations and listings that would be?   Given the fact that the majority of  times when people go to the doctor you don't know what is wrong with you, how will knowing the costs of the particular hospital or clinic help you? 

Non profit in name only (concept and financial tax advantage model)

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=593874

Meritcare:Sales:$605,736,095 Employees:1,500

https://www.bcbsnd.com/docs/about/29304247.pdf

http://aaahq.org/GNP/newsheadline/MYM2006/Styles_Koprowski_MidGNP_2006.pdf

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/297/10/1063

Self-paying patients (@40%) are an average of 2.5 times as much as insurers, and 3.07 times the Medicare-allowable levels. The markup was higher at for-profit hospitals (4.10 times) than at public hospitals (2.49), and higher at small urban hospitals (3.25 times) than at rural hospitals (2.42). The price inflation varies by state, as well. The highest markups states were CA, NJ and PA, with charges four times higher than Medicare-allowable costs. Lowest markups, at less than two times higher than Medicare, were IO, MS, MT, VT and WY.

http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2008/02/18/opinion/18mon1.html?s=4

Coding is not the problem. System ICD-9 (diagnosis) and CPT-4 (procedures), is a wonderful and convenient way for healthcare providers to convey what services were provided. That’s it and all. The U.S. government and private insurers simply want to know what the doctor did before agreeing to pay him. Not something that radical, it is what you are billed for after it reaches and leaves a bean counter's office.  Probably our most socially autistic individual as you will find.

The total federal input to subsidize the medical system per capita US head is $7500, what does that subsidize it certainly doesn't get to it's recipients.  Something wrong with the big picture.

GL~As the smart cookie, why are some many citizens not or underinsured even those who like most americans are finding times are getting a little more jittery.  Worse our healthcare for the most vulnerable i.e. kids and geriatric, is bottom of the league as a world standard, again something wrong with the bigger picture.

If being overweight is being fat, yes I am, but not obese.  I believe most everyone could lose a pound or two, don't you?  Being overweight causes a lot of problems needless to say.  No I don't waddle down the isles in WalMart like I see too many people do, it is disgusting to see where we are going with fast food, aka LARD!  My Dad in the nursing home is 92 has a picture on the wall in his room taken back in the 30's of a CCC camp, about 200 men or so.  Not one looks like they are overweight, except maybe the cook.  We are what we eat!  And we eat too much in my opinion.  Being a diabetic I know about carbs, most people don't.  This country is going down the tube.  Our health care system is a mess, think about that the next time you order a BigMac with fries.  The next time I see someone too fat to walk around in WalMart and using an electric chair because both of their cheeks weigh about 50 pounds each dragging on the chair wheels smoking I'm, going to remind them that gluttony is a SIN.  Say Amen......On the other hand who has that right?  You?  Me?  We are the so-called richest country in the world and we show it.  Our Democracy shows it also.  The DC trough where they hang out needs to be empty.  The War Mongers are always hungry and they will take everything away from the people that feed them, US Peasants.

GL~Name one that holds a not for profit status. Do check the small print on what is declared, also look up the holding group or corporate entity. 

btw 

Coding and red tape is created by Medicare (also known as govt intervention)

All medical hospitals and groups are now for profit,

and yet facts show this statement to be false.

Thanks Joe,

I won't be posting as before....but here-and-there when I get a pocket of time.

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GL. If we go the universal or governmental route (there seems to be about a 100 plans on the table....but lets assume a healthy dose of government), it seems necessary that suing over healthcare would have to be greatly curtailed. 

Switching gears just a bit.....In a way, do you see the present HMO system somewhat analagously to the relationship of a labor union to management. (i.e. a collection of individuals banding together (the HMO/Union) to create strategic leverage so that it can affect (in most cases) better wages/pricing.

It seems to me that when the HMOs really started to put the squeeze on the Medical facilities, prices initially held steady or dropped. [I can remember a time when most Americans thought that the HMOs were a godsend.]

And though I'm not sure there is currently a shortage of doctors (there seems to be....), there appears to have been a reduction in the number of doctors due to the pressure placed on them by the HMOs and by the rising costs associated with praciticing medicine.

In the great risk-and-reward matrix, many doctors left the profession and many 'would be' doctors opted for 2 years of business school instead.

So what happens when you create scarcity? You create value. And with value usually comes greater power. So the medical professionals cannot be pushed around as they once were.

And what we have been seeing this past decade is the HMOs inability to exercise pressure to control prices. In a sense, HMOs are a victim of their own success (see Detroit, Michigan).

This is generally how I see it as a passive observer. Since you are much closer to the situation, how do you see our current situation under the employer-driven HMO system?

- - -

Now what I've left out from above is the relationship between an HMO and the drug companies. In this area, though I have ideas and opinions on each, I don't have a grasp of the relationship between the two. Perhaps you do.

And I think we can all see a looming doctor shortage if the cost of being a doctor rises while incomes fall.

Worst part is we already have a doctor shortage at current levels.  Dropping the salary will only create further shortage which is typical of a universal healthcare country.

Bone.

I figured it was a nice benefit of the job.....one of many other nice bennies.

- - -

Putting aside the stories of recent years, in the relative time of peace we had before Iraq/Afghanistan, how good was the VA? I guess I'm directing this at the persons who served and have first hand experience with the VA.

Thanks GL.

I would think that this (the high cost of being a doctor) would be the first hurdle that needs to be cleared for such a system to work in the USA.....because most all sides of the argument seem to agree that the income for doctors will fall under a government system. [if I am overstating this, someone please correct me].

And I think we can all see a looming doctor shortage if the cost of being a doctor rises while incomes fall.

- - -

But I'm not trying to argue against universal healthcare...yet. I would be much more interested in seeing if we (the persons conversing here) could make it feasible. And after which time, judge to see if it is a good idea or not.

26% thought process?  That would be scarry because that would put you something like 2% based on this conversation. 

I suggest you actually do some research with an open mind.  Go ask questions of someone you trust who would actually have knowledge of how the medical field works not this perceived notion you have.  Actually think about what they say and do some basic math and you will see these theories you have don't add up.  I'm not going to argue with you anymore as yesterday I probably went a little overboard but I was just attempting to get you to see the errors in logic you were making with what I think are simple math and economic theory but maybe not.  Have a good day.

WW:  In the US currently, the VA system would be the closest thing I could compare too and in that system you cannot sue your doctor.    In Canada, you can sue your doctor but with limitations and somewhat different rules than in the US.