I've seen better crowds at junior high games.  Felt like I was watching a recreation or intramural game almost.  Nothing like it was back in the Swain Hall days. Quality of basketball isn't as good either.  Watching someone miss 3 pointers isn't a real thrill to me.

Well apparently there are  alot of people who are opposed to gay marriage or the propositions in California, Arizona and Florida would not have passed.  And yes I believe people ...even those who are opposed to these propositions that were recently passed should still respect and abide by the law.  

And whether people want to admit ir or not, this country was built on the foundation and principals of the Bible.  But regardless of what Religion one believes in or what book they might live by...whether it;s the Bible, the book of Mormon, the Koran ,ETc.  no major religion that I am aware of allows the union in holy matrimony of same-sex couples.

As far as prop 102  goes in which the majority of the people in Arizona voted for..........that marriage continues to be reserved for one man and one woman as it has always been for the last several hundred years in America. ...and the majority of Americans do not want this to change......whether you believe in the Bible or not.   I realize that not everyone believes in the Bible as I do but  for me that is my standard of what I try and live by and believe in as my source of truth. I understand not everyone will agree with me ...but for me...the issue of gay marriage is not an issue of logic and reasoning for me, it is a morality issue.  And I will defer to the bible on this because God is a whole lot smarter than me and knows what's best for His creation ... that's all I was trying to say.

You religion isn't a basis for the rights of others. 

That's fine.........a killer of discussion (on any subject)..........but fine.

You seem like a nice enough person, but I'll probably shy away from discussing much with you in the future due to the following sentences which are the equivalent of a closed door:

I don't really care about logic, I do care about what the Bible says and what God thinks because at the end of my life...He is the only one that I will have to anwer to for my own beliefs and choices.

Your faith is not an issue to me. That you "don't really care" about reasoning is. Unfortunately that is where a meeting of the minds can be held......and you seeming don't want to attend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

I wonder if the following would be an acceptable answer to you when trying to have a conversation with a Muslim about (insert issue here):

I don't really care about logic, I do care about what the Koran says and what Allah thinks because at the end of my life...He is the only one that I will have to anwer to for my own beliefs and choices.

You have taken a different road that I, I wish you well on your travels. Take care.

Ok, Well I've had a little more time to think about this and here's what I've come up with. 

I understand what's it's like to be made frun of and criticized for things I couldn;t help and had no control over....this happened to me at various times in my life.   It hurt alot and made me feel very rejected.   

But I don;t believe that is what is going on with homosexulality.  The Bible is very clear on this issue. No matter what the cause, no one has to act on all their impulses. Even if someone is attracted to the same sex, they still have a choice as to  whether they are going to act on the urges or not. That is where we disagree...if they didn;t have a choice then God would not talk about it in the Bible as He does in various passages.and hold people accountable.   The same holds true with heterosexual relaitonships as well. Just because I may be attracted to someone doesn;t mean I have to act on my impulses and have sex with them. there is always a choice involved in the acting out part. 

God is so gracious and loving and kind, he always gives us a choice regarding our behavior and actions.  Because he loves us he always wants the best for us.  He created us male and female and wired us to be able to procreate.  There are no creatures or animals on earth who mate with the same sex.  If we were all gay  how would the human race be able to continue to exist.?  Some of you keep talking about the expert psychologist and psychiatrists....who can be more of an expert on this subject than God. ?  He is not trying to withhold something good or of value when He says in the Bible that homosexuality is an abomination to Him...it is completely contrary to his nature and to the beautiful way He created us in His image as male and female.  I don;t really care about logic, I do care about what the Bible says and what God thinks because at the end of my life...He is the only one that I will have to anwer to for my own beliefs and choices. His word is truth and that is all the truth I really need.

I totally agree with you, Willie, that local kids bring local fan support.  However, they have to be extremely talented local kids that can compete at a college level.  We can't just fill the programs with local kids just to have them.  We all know that at the college level, its not how you play the game, but whether you win or lose.  No wins....No job for the coach.  I feel we have had a great number of increases in local kids at MSU for football, volleyball, track and field and baseball in the past few years and it is AWESOME.  The other issue is the extremely talented local kids often have dreams of player at a BIGGER school and few actually make it on the field/court or play four years at those schools. 

The dome is a tough place to play and I would agree that the athmosphere is lacking, unless you happen to be there for state class B boys basketball, then it is awesome.  In the dome, 1000 people in the stands is nothing and its hard to get the "game athmosphere" feel...especially if those 1000 people are spread out around the Dome.  I am curious if the seating area was a little more compact, if it would make it a better environment?  I love going to games at the auditorium during basketball tournaments or basketball days..great athmosphere.  I guess when our teams play in the dome, we just have to cheer louder!

You do not have to have them all.   Just one or more of these "circumstances" may make one turn to the gay lifestyle.  

As for my own step grandson,  he has at least 3 of those "circumstances".  So I am only speaking from first  hand knowledge.. Since he has decided to be homosexual, I have read some psychology book/ other books on the subject.

Yes,  civil unions are fine as he says,  just no "marriage"..

"Not being strong physically, possible facial deformity, stuttering"

ARE YOU KIDDING?  These are possible causes for homosexuality? 

I know a guy who played college football who was gay.  I have also met some VERY good looking gay men, that were very masculine appearing.  Geez,  can't you come up with something better than THAT.

I give up on this one.  I've stated my case.  DONE

QUOTE:You are not born gay,   you choose.... But as I have stated time and time again, there are certain"things" that can help  you think you are gay, and go into that lifestyle.... 1. no dad in home.  2.  not being strong physically 3.possible facial deformity., stuttering.. 2.  mother with lose morals....    there are more..... I  will try and find where I found it.

Plus,   people that are into the gay lifestyle  CAN AND SOMETIMES DO quit that lifestyle....its hard, but can be done..

Gays are people too, and no it isn't catchy...:QUOTE

SHOPPE!!!  We agree on something!!  Are you sure you're Shoppegirl?  LOL  

From what I've witnessed, what you listed can also cause promiscuity, physical and sexual abuse (none of which is normal).  Are people born that way also?  I don't think .  I think we're following Hollyweird a little too much.  Seems that's who made it popular to 'come out of the closet.'  There was a time when it was shameful for women to have babies out of wedlock, not in Hollyweird.  If you want to have a baby, just find a mate and have one.  So many trends are started in Hollyweird and we're expected to follow suit and accept it as normal.  I don't think so.  If it makes me close minded to follow my bible, then so be it. 

I don't have any issues with them giving gays full rights within the 'civil union.'  But, I think they need to leave the 'marriage' term alone.  I have nothing against gay folks either.  I have folk who have 'decided' to be gay right in my own family.  One happens to be my brother, who as a result of sexual abuse, decided to go that route.  I know this guy quite well, so I'm not guessing that he made the choice. 

Have a great day all!! 

I think some of you are purposly getting it wrong, on purpose....

You can't catch gayness.... thats stupid...

You are not born gay,   you choose.... But as I have stated time and time again, there are certain"things" that can help  you think you are gay, and go into that lifestyle.... 1. no dad in home.  2.  not being strong physically 3.possible facial deformity., stuttering.. 2.  mother with lose morals....    there are more..... I  will try and find where I found it.

Plus,   people that are into the gay lifestyle  CAN AND SOMETIMES DO quit that lifestyle....its hard, but can be done..

Gays are people too, and no it isn't catchy...  

Lonewolfie, I am not condoning that kind of behavior anymore than I would have condoned the behaviour of the two guys out in Wyoming who beat and tortured that gay college student and left him to die a few years back.  I never said that gay people had specials rights or that they don't do ANYTHING wrong.  They are human like the rest of us.

Maz, I know for a fact that many homosexuals are not happy with the way they are.  How would you like to be made fun of and criticized for something you couldn't help?  And making them feel like it is something they CAN help makes it even worse.  Especially when many religions (Christian and non-Christian alike) tell you that you are a sinner because of it.  Example;  how would you feel if you had been born blind, and everyone else told you that you are abnormal and not like the majority of everyone else, and that made you bad?  I know that you base your feelings on what you've read in the Bible.  I base my feelings on what I have learned in life, on the things I have observed in life, and, finally, on what the "experts" say about it.  On that note, I guess we won't agree about this topic, but it was a good conversation and a respectful one as it always should be.   Thank you.

This is a very interesting topic with a lot of close-minded responses.  It is interested how most of the negative comments towards gay marriage seem to be geared towards the bible.  Weird since there is more than one faith in this country.  And just for the record, I'm a confirmed Luthern, beleive in God but that doesn't mean that I agree with all of the teachings of the Luthern church.  Take for instance the role of women in Missouri and Wisconsin synode churches...they can't hold office...have fun with your LWML ladies (and i'm not discounting that, I just feel they should be able to hold office). 

I don't know how many of you have noticed or not, but there has been some separation of church and state for some time now, take for instance the "holiday tree" we now have at the white house.

Who has the right to say what two people can't be married? Don't give me a bible quote because some people may not beleive in your god so if their god doesn't have that same rule, is it ok?  My room mate for two years is gay.  It didn't "rub off on me" and I didn't "catch it".  My aunt is gay but my grandparents were old fashioned ND farm couple dancing cheek to cheek until they passed away. 

Our society is in a crisis..there is no doubt.  Naz spoke about nations collapsing after embracing homosexuality, our current national crisis situation has been brought on by our predominantly HETEROSEXUAL government and big businesses.  If the gays ran the government and these large corporations, there would probably be more sensistivity to issues, everyone would dress better with more color, and there would be fewer corporate spa retreats and more nature hikes! (its meant to be a joke people, please don't get all bent out of shape over that comment)  And if you are going to speak to national collapses, it would be great if you could site examples within the last century or so.

This topic was started to address the more pressing issues in this country such as our soldiers being killed on foreign soil, our economy in a financial collapse and people are losing their homes. Two people being happy in a  marriage should be the concern of the two people trying to be happy.  Afterall, I read some where that people have the right to "Life, liberty and the persuit of happiness".  I must have missed that "unless you are gay" clause.  It must have been in the fine print. 

Maz.  As to the religious foundation for your beliefs, I cannot comment. I do not share your faith (nor the findings of that faith for this particular subject), but I do understand the basis of thought.

Where we can have a discussion is in the secular realm....and though it isn't always the case, biblical opinions (or if you prefer "truths") should be defensible even if there were no divine authority.

So let us assume there is no divine authority for this discussion. Would your opinion to not allow homosexuals to marry remain the same? Why or why not?

- - -

Just to anticipate an objection. I full well understand and respect your opinion as it is based in faith. But that is a discussion "non-starter" for me. Being a selfish learner, it won't advance MY learning if you keep the discussion in that realm. Just as it wouldn't if you told me that you based your same belief about homosexuals in the Koran or the Torah.

It doesn't mean that your opinion is wrong, it just means that I cannot follow it.  We both can, however, in theory, have an intelligible discussion on the plane of logic, reason and consideration.

wuwe1619 and pets...you've both made some interesting points and I respect your input and feedback.  I don;t think you are interpreting my comments accurately, though.  For me to agree with the Bible that  homosexulality is a perversion of sex as God intended it doesn;t mean I think gays are bad or unworthy of love including God's. He does love them and  I most certainly am not trying to be their judge and jury....that's not for me to do.   As I said I worked with several gay people and respected them and cared about them.   I disagree with you though on this point.....I don;t believe people are born gay and I do believe they can change with God's help if they want to.  And I know of 2 people who did...one male and one female  and they are much happier with their lives now then they were before. I don't think all gay people even want to be gay and just need some hope and encouragment that they can change. God is able to help them by healing them of their past and changing their desires if they want him to.       

My cousin was gay...I don;t know if she still is because I have not seen her for many years but I know that she was not   happy with her life as it was.  .

Anyway, thanks for sharing your views...... .  

Good discussion

What will be the psychological excuse for this behavior involving a pro-homosexual group?

Worshippers at a Bible-teaching church in Lansing, Mich., were stunned Sunday when members of a pro-homosexual, pro-anarchy organization named Bash Back interrupted their service to fling propaganda and condoms around the sanctuary, drape a profane banner from the balcony and feature two lesbians making out at the pulpit.

Can anyone say "hate crime" here?  I guess liberals don't consider the interruption and desecration of a Christian Church to be a hate crime.